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Home Workshop > Members > Forum > Projects Area > Lathes > How to decide what size tooling to buy?

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How to decide what size tooling to buy?

How to decide what size tooling to buy?

I've been looking around at tool steel blanks to make various cutters and have noticed that they come in a wide range of sizes. How do you go about deciding what size to buy? Obviously the larger ones are more expensive but on the other hand have less give in them so I assume the accuracy of the cut would be better? Apart from those two reasons, what else should I be considering?

The lathe came with a cutter of about 1/2" and I've bought another that's 3/8" which seems to work ok? I assume the really small cutters are for tool holders or very small machines, but what's the difference between the two sizes I have and which should I buy more of? The 3/8 is quite a lot easier to grind!

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Re: How to decide what size tooling to buy?

Hi Neil

You buy the size that fits your toolpost. I bought a Myford size quick change toolpost (QCTP) for my lathe. This can take 12mm cutters and because it is adjustable vertically, 8mm and 10mm too. Some 1/2" fit but if they are a tad oversize then they need milling down.

John

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Re: How to decide what size tooling to buy?

Neil,
As a quick rule of thumb,use the biggest that will meet centre height without a load of packing.   So clamping direct to the topslide will let you use thicker than if using a toolholder, as you surmise.  More mass, less vibration, but everything is a compromise.

Phil

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Philip Robinson
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Re: How to decide what size tooling to buy?

I have to agree with both John and Phil - but "give" (or lack of) in the tool to some degree depends upon the cut you are taking.  On my ML7 I often use 1/4 square cutters for fine work but if roughing out, a 10mm or 12mm square with carbide tip. Also with things like a qc toolpost, there are various elements of "give" before you even get to the tool. I hesitate to admit it in public but if I occasionally have a "dig-in" when parting off, the lathe (ML7) stops, the qc toolholder flexes downwards and the parting blade (1/16 thick) remains intact! Theoretically none of that should happen but it does, and parting-off is probably the most testing cut anyone is likely to take. In those circumstances there is a lot to be said for rigidity not just in the tool but also in the toolholder. Like Phil says, it all comes down to compromise!

"He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors"
Thomas Jefferson

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Peter Smithurst
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Re: How to decide what size tooling to buy?

I always look at what they do in industry and follow that. My Hardinge capstan and chucker work on 3/8" square as do many bar autos. I standardized on this size years ago and now buy HSS in 4" lengths so a broken tool will regrind into another.
On centre lathes where I want to take a massive cut than I go for the largest tip tool shank that will fit in the holder - in my case this is 3/4"square shank, here I buy used tools and tips on ebay and go back to 3/8" HSS or special tools.
Peter

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Re: How to decide what size tooling to buy?

I think the best tool for my Boxford is about 1/2". I bought a parting off tool that was a bit over that (about 15mmx5mm) at the car boot sale on the weekend and when I put it in the lathe earlier I had to grind the top down so the cutting edge was centred on the bar I wanted to cut off. Now I've got a proper parting off tool though it flies through really easily. I think it may also help that I'm getting the hang of grinding the cutters.

I'm itching to get out and try some accurate screwcuts now I've got some more tooling. I picked up a dial to check the work is centered on the weekend too so my toolbox is slowly growing! Might have found a fixed steady too - I want to try threading large diameter pipe which has to grip on the outside edge of the jaws.

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Re: How to decide what size tooling to buy?

If you are using tipped tools then as you say 1/2" is about right, but a bit bigger is OK too and I don't disagree that as big as you can fit is desirable, but there's no need to get carried away. For HSS, I regularly use 1/4" square with no problems at all.

Be realistic, how often can you put enough brute force behind a cutter in a lathe the size of a Boxford to inflict damage on even 1/4" tool steel? You do need to be sensible about how the tool is mounted, don't have an inch of it hanging out of the tool holder or tool post and if the overhang/projection needed is 'significant' a second 1/4" sq tool under the first, as part of the height packing and projecting most of the way out to the tip helps improve the rigidity greatly.

We are somewhat spoilt for choice these days with relatively cheap WC tipped tools readily available, but 1/4" HSS has served well on these machines for many decades and is still valid for most of what we are likely to do.

- Richard -

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Re: How to decide what size tooling to buy?

I was thinking about buying a couple of those 6mm tool holders, are they any good? The idea of using another tool as packing is a good one, if I ever buy any I'll try it.

I'm quite soft on kit and don't tend to push it. It's only a hobby so there's no rush and as you say the Boxford isn't that big anyway.

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Re: How to decide what size tooling to buy?

No one has mentioned the possible use of tool holders as made by Eclipse and J&S. These enable the use of small pieces of cutting steel, typically 1/4" or less, but with minimal projection of the cutter whilst providing decent access from the toolpost itself. Particularly useful for odd shapes where you don't want to go grinding bigger cutters, they also have the tool on an angle so that a small adjustment in cutter height can be made without odd thin shims. There are also various cranked variants of these for improved access. The downside can be that the shank may be too big for your toolpost, so you'd need to check this. There is an example of the Eclipse on ebay at present; search for 'eclipse tool holder'; I have one identical to this which I seem to recall using on a Boxford I had some years ago.

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Re: How to decide what size tooling to buy?

Nick Kempley wrote:

Particularly useful for odd shapes where you don't want to go grinding bigger cutters

That was my thought. I'm looking for a couple of these holders at the moment, hopefully even a 90 degree to do internal threads in pipes. The grinding of a half inch cutter is a pain compared to say a 6mm. Even the difference between 3/8 and 1/2 on my little grinder is quite obvious.

I've been away over the weekend so am a bit behind on the ebay scene. I'll go and have a look now.

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Re: How to decide what size tooling to buy?

For those youngsters puzzled by Nick's reference to toolholders, I think these are one type he means.  The top one has been ground to provide and extra angle and fit in a smaller toolpost.
http://www.homeworkshop.org.uk/components/com_agora/img/members/216/mini_Toolholders.jpg

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Re: How to decide what size tooling to buy?

Use this type of holder all the time on the Boxford at School they work really well, but one not being used  always gets in the way if  you mount two in the 4 way tool post.
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Re: How to decide what size tooling to buy?

The picture shown by Philip is correct as far as J&S variety is concerned. The Eclipse variety is similar in principle, but the bit is better held under a tapered clamp which can hold 3/16" and round bits, as well as the normal 1/4", much better than the J&S, at least in my opinion.

I agree with Ashley that the overhang of the whole assembly has it's downside on multiway toolposts, though it's OK on interchangeable or single posts.

Nick

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Re: How to decide what size tooling to buy?

Although I share Nicks approval of toolbits and toolbit holders, using them in an interchangeable (QC) toolpost system doesn't really make sense, especially on a small machine, as overhangs, projections and general bulk do stack up burning up space which no small machine has to spare.  I've mentioned before that, in my view, the best way to exploit these devices is by basing a proper system around the idea of changing bits in "fixed" holders using a tool height gauge to simultaneously set bit projection and height.  Working in this manner relatively slim two slot tool carrier blocks can be used minimising interference from the resting tool when the other is in use.  I found it helpful to adopt 25° (ish) off straight in as the standard position for the topslide which also gets the handles nicely out of each others way.  Two blocks would do nicely for a starter set.  One carrying bent to the right and bent to the left holders for normal turning and facing duties respectively the other nominally for parting tool and boring bar although its doubtful it there is any advantage to leaving the boring bar mounted at all times.  With a slot waiting and tool height gauge for set up mounting a boring bar is fast.  The T-slotted top slide on the Boxford makes it trivial to change toolblocks if they are made as complete assemblies with Tee nut, stud and locking handle.  Built up construction works just fine for the block and Tee-nut. A person more refined than I would arrange some form of indexing so the turning tool carrying block could be swivelled 180° to change from turning to facing duties and the parting tool block accurately mounted exactly perpendicular to the lathe axis.  I happily used a variant of this proposal for many years in my SouthBend driving days using pairs of welded shank tools in rapid interchange 4-way post, Tee nut & stud assemblies.  20-20 hindsight says toolbits and holders would have worked a little better.

Once you have a nice collection of toolbits ground to the correct angles this is the system least likely to tempt you into using a less than ideal tool for the job as mounting a different bit is no fuss.  Even if you have a QC set-up with plenty of holders only the uber organised have enough tools mounted never to fall into temptation! ( I've usually got only 6 or so of my Dicksons filled.)  Toolbits have the advantage of being much easier to grind to defined shapes using templates than  welded shank tools.  Despite doing it on numerous occasions I've never subscribed to the idea that twisting a tool post to change the cutting angles is a satisfactory way of going about things.  Standard HSS tool blanks are long enough for two, sometime three, cutting bits so building up a set with all the right angles is affordable.

Clive

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